Talk:Constitution class/archive
See: Talk:Constitution class/Archive for all conversations from 2004 through August 2005. Speculation If canon establishes Constitution as NCC-1700, Constellation cannot be the same class, not when she is 700 contract (registry) numbers earlier; similarly, neither is Republic. --squadfifteen, 16/11/05 :One possible excuse permits the above case, as I see it: NCC-1700 Constitution replaces a same-named ship, permitting confusion; nevertheless, a different class. --squadfifteen, 16/11/05 :I am inclined to limit the Constitution''s thus: *''Constitution NCC-1700 *''Enterprise'' NCC-1701 *''Hood'' NCC-1703 *''Exeter'' NCC-1706 *''Lexington'' NCC-1709 *''Kongo'' NCC-1710 *''Yorktown'' NCC-1717 plus one or two unnamed ships. I am disinclined to include NCC-1764 Defiant and NCC-1831 Intrepid because they are too high-numbered, given the size and complexity of Constitution (and what I've read of Gene's intent there only be 12 of her class at a time), unless we accept they are replacing losses (in which case, why not reuse existing names? or do they?). :I further exclude NCC-956 Eagle and NCC-1071 Constellation as too low-numbered; they belong to a different class, perhaps joined by NCC-1371 Republic (which I would construe as lead ship of a later group, given Constitution; on that basis, Eagle might be, too). :Furthermore, I propose a third group: Farragut NCC-1647 Potemkin NCC-1657 Excalibur NCC-1664 Endeavour NCC-1695 These are likely replacing losses in the Republic class. :I suggest the relationship between these ships is comparable to Gato: changes in weapons spec, propulsion, mainframe, hull framing, and so forth, but superficially identical except in detail. (Perhaps examination of canon photographs would reveal?) --squadfifteen, 16/11/05 As I recall, the so-called "Enterprise-A" was a new design, not a Constitution. --trekphiler, 16/11/05 It's intriguing to me "STTOS" with Constitution comes closest to an actual naming system: historical ships. --squadfifteen, 16/11/05 :::Very interesting speculation, but there's a lot of evidence from the show itself which disagrees with what you've put here. :::The USS Enterprise-A was Constitution class -- it says it on the dedication plaque seen in Star Trek V and Star Trek VI -- similarly, the USS Defiant (NCC-1764) is also, agin established as Constitution-class by its plaque. The name "Constitution class" refers to both the TOS modification and the later refit design used in the Star Trek Movies -- the "class name" encompasses both modifications, showing another way that Starfleet registers and names ships completely differently from the US Navy, therefore, the US Navy cannot be used as a logical model to describe how Starfleet would work. :::Also, Starfleet numbers tend to run non-sequentially. even excepting the odd case of NCC-1017; the USS Entente has an NCC-2100 number even though NCC-2000 Excelsior wouldnt be out for another 15 years, obviously we cant expect every Constitution to have a number higher than 1700. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 14:59, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC) :::Starfleet tends not to reuse a ship name for the same class -- there have only been a handful of cases of this, mostly in special situations (two Contitution-class Enterprises; two Defiant class Defiant''s, etc) all other ships named as successors have been different classes -- so replacements would likely have different names that the original run of the class. ::::If there's canon evidence for ''Yorktown and NCC-1764 Defiant, I bow to it; I don't recall it. That doesn't invalidate everything else. It's also pretty flimsy evidence to invalidate on. Moreover, there's substantial internal evidence in canon for similarity of Starfleet practise with USN, not least the ship command structure; I would argue for a similarity in the registry. ::::I'd be leery of relying on Excelsior to bolster my argument, given her apparently unhappy design; if Scotty could so easily disable her, it may have been awhile before she entered service. ::::And if the canon supports such an extensive run under the same class name, I'd say (as I have elsewhere) the writers don't know what they're talking about. ::::Also, is it canon names aren't reused? It seems contraindicated by reuse of Defiant (Enterprise being a special case...); that we haven't seen names reused does not establish it did not happen. --squadfifteen, 17/11/05 If we accept Enterprise launched 2245, how does a ship 700 registry #s earlier fall in the same class? I'll accept Constitution& Enterprise are a common class... Has a canon (or authoritative) list of launch dates ever appeared? --trekphiler, 21/11/05 * Well, 1764 is canon for Defiant, as of "In A Mirror Darkly", for one thing (referring to someone above looking for a citation.Capt. Christopher Donovan 04:53, 15 Jan 2006 (UTC) :So I see the discussion started on Talk:USS Yorktown continues here in part. We have no problem if one disregards the registries associated with the vessels! There is no canon evidence to believe the Starbase 11 chart listed a) all Constitution vessels b) the Constitution vessels which names we knew. Matt Jefferies wanted the starship's to start with 17 and his wishes should be respected. Also the Jein-Interpretation does NOT say that the vessels are Constitution class, but that 17xx vessels belong to class IX and 16xx ones to class VIII. This little information was dropped when the registries were imported to the Encyclopedia. The only ships WITH registries from TOS we know 1700 Constitution, 1701 Enterprise, 1017 Constellation, and 1371 Republic, +TMP 1715 Merrimack and +ENT 1764 Defiant. Then there are the 1709, 1631/1831, 1703, 1672, 1664, 1697, 1718, and 1685 of which we only know they were assigned to Starbase 11 -- Kobi - [[ :Kobi|( )]] 11:22, 15 Jan 2006 (UTC) ::I think it's really just a flub in numbering ships back during the production of TOS. It also could very well be that the numbers are not chronological, or perhaps there were ships with those numbers to be made, but then cancelled, but they used the numbers on the sister ships. I don't know, I know after researching here, and Star Trek.com, I feel that the names are atleast right, and several registry numbers were. Terran Officer April 25, 1:41 AM (EST) Specification Is there a canon reason the number of TT was changed from up to 6 to only 2 in the FRAM refit? --squadfifteen, 17/11/05 :I have no idea what FRAM means. Are you talking about ships from Star Trek here? -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk Phasers at Warp I noticed on the tactical systems section that the article was going on the idea that phasers were not used at warp...There's plenty of good canon evidence that they ARE used at warp, some of the latter series' confusing statements notwithstanding...I didn't want to just come out and make a BIG change like that without soliciting comment first...Capt. Christopher Donovan 04:56, 15 Jan 2006 (UTC) Transporter Room "Staging Area" Is there anyone who can point me at a specific piece of information to suggest the "suiting up" area shown in TMP is actually adjacent to aTransporter Room? The sequence in the film I thought made it pretty clear that it was part of the Air Lock areaCapt. Christopher Donovan 05:30, 16 Jan 2006 (UTC) :Hmm... I don't know if there's any canon information in that regard, but this fact is mentioned in the non-canon Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, which is where I based the information of the "staging area" upon. So guess it's not really canon, though the authour may have gotten that information from behind-the-scenes sources? Ottens 16:14, 16 Jan 2006 (UTC) :I remember the reference, but IIRC there's nothing in "Mr Scott's..." to indicate that the "airlock prep" room seen in the film is the "staging area" Johnson mentions...Capt. Christopher Donovan 08:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC) Pre-refit saucer vs. nacelle separation FWIW, like a lot of folks, I've thought for years that The Apple contained a reference to saucer separation, but after listening closely, it really doesn't. Kirk tells Scotty "discard the warp nacelles if you have to, and crack-out of there with the main section". (This line is not transcribed in at least one popular online reference) There's a similar order to discard nacelles in The Savage Curtain. Both emphasize nacelle separation and say nothing specific about saucer separation. The design of the ship certainly suggests it's an option, and there might have been something planned for ST: TMP, but... does this mean a reference to primary/secondary hull separation in the pre-refit configuration is something less than canon? --Aurelius Kirk 19:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC) *Hmm, if it has been mentioned as a background note by a member of the Trek staff, it may have some validity. I have even heard references that many starships have the ability to separate their saucers (which I don't see why not), but cannot reintegrate them without starbase/drydock assistance. - Adm. Enzo Aquarius 03:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC) Confusion within the article There is some confusion within the article what ships are Constitution and which are not; USS Kongo for example is listed as one of the original 12 ships in the beginning, but as uncertain in the end listing; also as I've read here USS Yorktowns status is disputed as well etc. But I don't just want to edit a featured article easily, so perhaps anyone could present here what is the "final" list of certain and probable Consitutions? Kennelly 23:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC) The Constitution refit/ Enterprise class. I'm wanting opinions about spliting the Constitution class page into two, one for the original class and one for the refit which was there after known as the Enterprise class, although I haven't seen any reference to that except the one I added. Being that the Enterprise was so heavily rebuilt, and to a successful design, it was considered the prototype of a new class of ships, named after the original the Enterprise. I'm surprised no one has included this here. The Enterprise-A was built as an Enterprise class making each incarnation of the Enterprise a different (originally at least) class, Constitution, Enterprise, Exselsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, and Sovreign. Thanks.--Dac18643 05:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC) * Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country settled the matter of class label -- the refit [[USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)|USS Enterprise]] is labeled ''Constitution''-class in Scotty's blueprints. But I am in favor of splitting the article into Constitution class and Constitution class (refit) for the sake of clarity and readability. --Aurelius Kirk 05:44, 10 March 2006 (UTC) **Sorry I missed that. And my information probably predates that movie. I guess I should take my note out of the article. I get confused about whats "official" and what isn't. And my opinion is that having the newly built ships of that type would be a new class. The new ones aren't "refits" but new construction.--Dac18643 05:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC) ::Not to re-start an old discussion, but there actually is a modern example to compare with. Many classes of naval ships undergo refits, sometimes extensive. When a new ship is bult with all of these upgrades in place, thus never refitted itself, it is still considered a member of the original class. It is usually just called a member of a new "flight" of ships. An example is the Los Angeles class submarine, of which there have been 3 "flights", but they are all still Los Angeles class. New build constitutions that match the refit configuration could therefore be considered "flight 2" of the same class, and not a new one. --OuroborosCobra 07:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC) :Interestingly enough, there is evidence apparently going back to 1980 that if the producers had EVER considered "Enterprise class" for the refit, they had abandoned the idea early on. Check THIS out, from the Trek Newspaper strip, set in the TMP era. Not canon, but officially approved at the time: 12 vs 13 ships Most people in half memory of a line from "Tomorrow is Yesterday" believe there were only 12 ships as of that episode. The truth is Kirk's line says there are 13 Constitution Class ships. The line excludes the Enterprise in the 12 "12 like it in the fleet". Because of this keeping this article accurate might be hard, especially with new members coming in. So I am going to add a note to the article, even though it might appear an unnecessary note. --TOSrules 07:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC) "Modified Constitution-refit" I added the metion of the "modified Constititution-refit" seen in "Booby Trap" (TNG). What do you think? 207.61.101.2 16:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC) (aka Ensign_Q) more than 2 photon tubes? In Wrath of Khan, we see a shot that seems to establish that there are FOUR torpedo bays on the enterprise. in most shots, the bays are labelled 1 and 2, but in one shot, just after the enterprise leaves orbit and heads to the nebula, we see a shot with a Torpedo bay 3 and 4. for more details see here: http://www.trekplace.com/article01.html perhaps the Refit Constitution has a pair of torpedo tubes that fire rearwards, out a common port in the back of the neck? (in that black 'cut-out' perhaps?) -Mithril 21:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC) :This is interesting, but before it is included in the article, I think we need someone to confirm these shots on their own DVDs (sorry, I am poor and don't have any). I feel this needs to be checked because some of the shots on the external link are obviously doctored (expecially that last one). Once it is confirmed, we should change the article to reflect 4 torpedo tubes for the refit. --OuroborosCobra 22:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC) :It is made perfectly clear in the Trekplace article that the existene of these Torpedobays 3 and 4 is practically impossible. It should be noted in the article, though, preferably as a mistake in the Background section. Ottens 06:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC) ::it's made clear that the articles author beleives the existance of bay's 3 and 4 is impossible. and it's true that it makes little sense if they fire foreward. thus why i suggested rear fireing tubes. bays 3 and 4 would then be behind 1 and 2, facing the opposete way. -Mithril 15:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Well, I have to say that that would not jibe with what we have seen of the refit constitution. Here is a rear shot: It does not look like the module with the forward tubes has rear firing ones. --OuroborosCobra 18:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC) ::It could be that the "3" and "4" bays are part of an unbuilt design -- they have labeled access ports should they ever be grafted on, but do not exist as such. Seems like the kind of signs that would end up being in place after a military appropriations discussion. -- Captain M.K.B. 18:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC) ::::that small black section on the neck looks like a torpedo port. the 3rd and 4th tubes might be in a > arrangement, exiting out a single port. -Mithril 21:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC) ::We've never seen an arrangment likie that on any other ship. Without more evidence, I'd have to say they aren't there. --OuroborosCobra 22:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC) :::Also, the black thing is located above the module the other launch tubes are in. --OuroborosCobra 22:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC) mass.. the ship is listed as massing 1 million metric tons. thats something of a major increase in density over the NX class with its 80,000, given that the Constitution is only slightly larger. it also means the Consituition is 1/4th the mass of the Galaxy class, while being nearly 10x smaller in volume. i'm just having a hard time seeing such a dense ship. (IIRC, the old TOS tech manual, albeit non-canon, had 190,000 tons. as did the starship spotter.) where did the 1 million ton figure come from? -Mithril 02:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC) :Not sure where it came from. We need to check on that. Unfortunetly, there is a good chance that it is from an episode. The writers sometimes don't stop and think when they are writing these masses. Take a look at Borg scoutship, for example. The thing looks to be about the size of a runabout, but in the episode they say it has a mass of about 2.5 million metric tons. --OuroborosCobra talk 02:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC) :::i agree as to the odd masses we sometimes get. i would really like to find out where the million tons came from though. the borg scout was intended to be a factual statement (perhaps borg tech is just really high mass and density), but some lines might be hyperbole, inflated stats to make what they're saying sound more impressive. it would be nice to see which one this stat came from. (i also double checked my starship spotter. original model Constitution listed as 190,000 tons, and the refit at 210,000 tons. they left off half the armaments of the original connie, but it was done before In a Mirror, Darkly, so all you had to go on were the foreward phasers and torp tube seen in TOS.) -Mithril 18:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC) ::::The Borg Scout ship stat comes from dialogue in the episode "I, Borg": :::::DATA: "The vessel is traveling at warp seven-point-six. Mass: two-point-five million metric tons, configuration: ...cubical." :::::RIKER: "The Borg..." :::::DATA: "Its dimensions indicate that it is a scout ship similar to the one that crashed." ::::Something that small weighing that much would have probably sunk into the ground at the crash site, yet shown on screen, it did not. --OuroborosCobra talk 18:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC) :::ah, i guess i wasn't clear on my statement. i wanted to know the line about the enterprise mass came from, and if it was hyperbole or factual. i've seen I, Borg several times, though i never noticed that line. -Mithril 19:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC) :The mass of the Enterprise was stated to be "almost a million gross tons" in "Mudd's Women". A gross ton is 2240lbs, or 1016kg. More on the matter can be found on my Volumetrics page at ST-v-SW.Net DSG2k 19:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC) ::a little wikipedia search finds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_ton , which indicates that 'gross tonnage' for ships is a measure of Displacement, not mass. so the Constitution class volume would take up the same volume as 1 million tons of water. from the Tonnage article on wikipedia- Gross Tonnage refers to the volume of all ship's enclosed spaces (from keel to funnel) measured to the outside of the hull framing.-Mithril 20:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC) :::I've discussed the issue of gross tonnage to death elsewhere, hence the text on my site I linked to, which includes reference to the use for gross ton of 100 cubic feet or so. However, that use is invalid in this context, because the ship would have to be huge for that to be the case. For kicks, let's do the math ... the ship's volume which I estimate in the text to be 211,248 cubic meters indicates a gross tonnage of 74,600. Let's say you're right, and that Scotty indicated the ship's gross tonnage to be 900,000 or so. That's 900,000,000 cubic feet of volume, or 25,485,161.9 cubic meters. Using the volume coefficient based on 289 meters and 211,248 cubic meters for the normal ship, your re-imagined Constitution's length would be 1,428 meters . . . or almost 4,700 feet. That's over twice as long as the Sovereign Class. :::So our choices are to assume an unnecessary context for Scotty's statement, one which runs contrary to everything else we know of the Constitution Class starship, or we accept his statement for what it logically refers to. Your call. - DSG2k 22:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC) ::with no better alternative, we'll leave it as is. i still beleive that 1 million tons is probably not accurate either however. the line could still be hyperbole, or the result of the poorly defined size of the ship in TOS. -Mithril 00:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC) Screen vs. Turbolift On the Centerline The statement that "mounted into the room's forward bulkhead, on the ship's centerline, was the main viewscreen," is simply wrong. The visual evidence first seen in "The Cage" clearly indicates that the command module is offset. The turbolift shaft can be seen outside the ship and, once inside, we see a crewman walk out of the lift.- GNDN 17:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC) :The issue of whether or not the bridge is offset has been the subject of much debate. On the one had there are those who say it is, while others say it isn't. At TrekBBS, for example, proponents of both have waged war with massive threads featuring various scalings, diagrams, and argumentation. "The Cage" supports neither view explicitly, since the scene would not only indicate a turbolift not lined up with the so-called turboshaft, but further the bridge would not be level with the saucer. :Personally I favor the notion that the bridge is centered and not cattywompus, but given the excessive struggles over the matter perhaps an NPOV viewpoint would be preferred. -- DSG2k 00:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC) ::Originally, the turbolift was to line up center right behind the captain's chair, and the bridge module was set front to back. The model of the Enterprise was lined up accordingly. However, during the initial filming of "The Cage", the directors noted that Chris Pike was blocking the view of the lift. Seeing this as a problem, the turbolift was swapped with another part of the modular bridge, scooting it over. The model was not changed. This is what led to the 'offset' problem. ::The first 'official' explanation for this came in the Constitution Class Deck Plans, from Franz Joseph, and authorized by Gene Roddenberry. In those plans, the offset is indicated to exlpain the discrepancy between the bridge set and the filming model. This is repeated in the Tech Manual a couple of years later. ::So, officially, and since there's been nothing official to refute this, the only 'canon' answer possible is that the bridge is, in fact, rotated for some reason. (Vanguard) Battle cruiser? only if you are a klingon The article was just changed from "Heavy cruiser" to "Battlecruiser", citing Star Trek III. The problem is that it was called a "battle cruiser" (two words, in the script) by the Klingons, and MA is written as Federation database. I am looking for a reference to Heavy cruiser, and may be reverting this. --OuroborosCobra talk 21:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC) :I believe Gene Roddenberry or Matt Jefferies or someone in the production staff designated it as a Heavy Cruiser. What the Klingons call it is irrelevant, since they are most likely expressing an opinion or a misconception in calling it a battlecruiser. And I can assure you Starfleet wouldn't have designated a ship built for exploration as a "battlecruiser". --From Andoria with Love 01:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC) :Indeed, the Enterprise was labeled as a heavy cruiser on the bridge layouts in Star Trek III, according to the background at Heavy cruiser. Reverting. --From Andoria with Love 01:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC) ::Although I added the Paramount copyright petty-fogging to the recently added image, I am not at all convinced that the ship depicted here is a refit, much less a [[USS Constitution|USS Constitution]] refit. And since we are on the record, this ''Enterprise'' could well be another refit re-commissioned, or an entirely new vessel. A well-lighted image of the [[USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)| refit Enterpise]] from Star Trek: The Motion Picture would be most welcome. --GNDN 04:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC) :::it says it is Constitution class, not the USS Constitution... the term "refit" refers to the fact that it is of the same configuration as the refit Constitution-class Enterprise vessel, not that it has been refit itself. :::I'd love to speculate and "make-up" imaginative histories of whether these ships were refit in any specific way, based on their registries and age, but if we didnt see or hear about it onscreen, its really not Memory Alpha's business to say. -- Captain M.K.B. 04:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC) To bring this discussion to an end: This is what the Enterprise's bridge display says: Heavy Cruiser -- Kobi 13:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC) :Actually, there is even a picture of this on MA. --OuroborosCobra talk 13:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC) Joseph Franz works aren't considered canon. "For many years, these reference works formed the backbone for treatments of the Star Trek setting. Their general assumptions about Starfleet and the galaxy as a whole were the basis of the Star Fleet Universe and FASA's version of Star Trek, as well as most novels about Star Trek. This book was one of the materials that was stripped of its canonical status at around the same time as FASA's version of Star Trek and its ideas about Star Trek were ignored from that point on."